What is the most common question people ask you about Papusza?
I think that the question which appears most frequently – especially in Poland – is “how did the process of learning the Romani language go?”, because it is a very interesting case, I suppose, when a particular person who prepares for a role in a film has to learn a new language. By the way, if it was another, more popular language, I probably wouldn’t take that challenge; to pretend that I am able to speak it fluently. It is a different story to play a foreigner who is able to speak with a proper accent or “to murder”, but in Papusza, I was pretending that this was my language; that I am speaking in a way other Romani people on a film set do. Although I had some objections at the beginning, I realised there are so few people who can verify the way I speak Romani that it is worth taking the risk [laughter]. It obviously doesn’t mean that I haven’t tried to speak it properly, that my pronunciation, accent and other details weren’t scrutinised.
How long did it take you to learn Romani and who was your teacher?
We have been learning the language for approximately 10 months. Our decision was not only to learn lines from the script, but also to meet a language in a way that we could understand more, know its context, to catch its melody and understand what the Romani people who act in the film say.
Our teacher and language consultant on the set of Papusza was Jacek Milewski, a man who established the first and, for a long time, the only school for Romani children in Poland. Jacek is self-taught; he is not a Romani and he has learnt their language whilst working with his pupils, being deeply submerged in this environment. He knows the language very well and if Jacek had any doubts while teaching us, he was consulting with his friends.
Jacek did his work well, though it was very hard because there are no books, CDs or films in this language which we could use during practicing. That is why we had to remember the basic words at the beginning, then sentences and it was very fascinating. I have learnt Romani so well that I was able not only to understand many things being said on a film set but also, six months later, while reading Jacek’s new book (Jacek Milewski is also a writer) about Romani people’s life, in which there are plenty of sentences in original language. I succeeded in not looking at the endnotes for the translations. Only sometimes I had to make sure that I had remembered a particular word correctly. They were not very complicated sentences, but I had the satisfaction that, after such a long period of time, without being in touch with language, I remembered quite a lot.
What did the script look like?
The script was written fully in Polish and then translated by Jacek in such a way that, besides the basic version, we also had dialogue in Romani language which we were mastering later on whist preparing for the role.
What about extras? They were also learning their roles from a script?
No, no – working with Romani people is, in general, an interesting story because they weren’t given any dialogue to learn by heart. Of course, there was a script’s outline, important lines to say, and the directors were telling them how a particular scene will appear, more or less ascribing their roles which they were suppose to diffuse quarrels or disputes. They were, for instance, saying: “You will say that they have settled and fenced the Romani, and you respond that it is impossible” – but there were just some thoughts and notions, not narrowly written dialogues. Therefore, we weren’t sure if a particular scene would go off well, if the extras would know what they are suppose to say to each other – but it appeared that they were doing it fantastically. On the film set, the directors were sitting with the headphones on their ears, were looking in the picture and saying: “it looks great, but what are they saying? Are they saying what we want them to say?” [laughter]. Next to them, Jacek Milewski was obviously watching. He was controlling what was going on and was always confirming that Romani people were saying exactly what was meant. Of course later, while preparing subtitles to a film and translations into other languages, Jacek was also writing down everything the actors were saying in a given scene. In a way, that was the really big adventure!
Sometimes, during filming, you let the extras “go with the flow” and there is no special supervision with it. As it was, in Papusza’s case, it worked very well. In my opinion, it was a brilliant idea to let them say what they want and not to impose any scripted lines or sentences. For sure, it would have a different energy and I don’t know if the extras would be able to repeat the particular line correctly if the directors paid too much attention to words.
And our Romani people, thanks to their spontaneity and energy, created very exciting scenes when they are quarreling – of course everything in their roles. They did it fantastically.
Was it difficult to persuade Romani people to act in the film? Papusza is, for some of them, still a controversial figure.
For sure not for everybody, now some time has passed and Romani society has evolved. I think that, for many young people, Papusza is not a traitor; she is not condemned, because they look at her history through the prism of contemporary times. She is the only one Romani woman who is really known, who has monuments, whose books are published, about whom people talk and write, create music, and films. I think that, for them, Papusza becomes in some way an icon, a hero. But, of course, there still are such Romani, especially elderly, who remember that era and for them Papusza doesn’t deserve any approval. What is true they do not mention it in official conversations because it is considered to be bad taste to say anything unpleasant, but you can feel it while talking with them privately, that they have a problem with her, that not everybody respects her. Anyway, I think it happens to all great people who pierce through mediocrity. And in Papusza’s case, it is worth remembering about cultural context, about the omnipresence of a patriarchal system in which she attempted such independence, which even now is unthinkable for some of the Romani people.
Did it take you much time to prepare for this role? How it is to enter someone’s skin literally – because we must remember about a brilliant characterisation you had?
For a long time…a very long time…quite frankly, from the very beginning till the very end, I was very scared of this role. At first, I was scared because of the fact that I completely do not resemble Papusza physically. In my opinion, I also did not have her mentally, I had many anxieties about being able to present this character, if I would be a reliable Romani, poet, and this all caused million different doubts. In the beginning of preparation, I was talking with directors about it. I was talking about my doubts, that it is not the best idea, that this role is not for me. But Joanna and Krzysztof are creators with whom I have worked many times before and they believe in me and I trust them totally, so it was enough to hear a few sentences and I said: “okay! If they believe that it is possible, I will do everything to make it so.” Therefore, I had to lose almost 20 kilograms at first. It was a period in my life when I finished feeding my younger daughter, I got totally submerged into motherhood without paying attention to the fact that I was becoming much heavier than usually, so I had to take care of myself. Besides this, I had to learn the language, read all the Papusza’s and Fickowski’s pieces and prepare for the role.
Did you have, therefore, time for family life and other daily duties?
Contrary to appearances, yes – even more than usually. When I am preparing for films, I have time to devote a few hours daily only to work but, when my kids return from kindergarten and school, mummy is already home, there is dinner and we can spend the rest of the day together. I really enjoy this time. To prepare for Papusza, we had a more time than usual. I am really happy that Joanna and Krzysztof prepared for a long time and precisely. This is the time, the process, to internalise all of these thoughts, to mesh with your character.
Did the directors give you any guidance in how this character is supposed to look?
Of course. We were meeting, discussing scenarios, trying to check what is working and what is not – at first on the level of working with text – later it evolved during filming.
With Papusza, it was slightly a smaller field to improvise than usually in Joanna’s and Krzysztof’s films, because we had a language barrier. A particular scene couldn’t be completely “overturned” because it was obvious that we wouldn’t be able to improvise freely. That is why the script had to be precisely prepared, it means more literally than usual. But it doesn’t mean that we weren’t trying to merge into Romani’s reality as well as possible. We were performing rehearsals, we were driving to “our” Romani people in Olsztyn to live with them for a bit. Paloma, who played young Papusza, was visiting me so that we could meet each other, look at each other – it was her first film, so I was helping her to imagine how will she would work on the film set. She is a very talented girl!
In fact, all that time spent preparing lasted for months and later, because of organisation and production purposes, filming was moved to the future. We had two cycles – winter, which we were filming in February, and summer, at first planned for May but eventually we came back to the set in October. All that time spent waiting to resume filming was also devoted to thinking about this role. Anyway, I will admit honestly that there were some moments when the finishing of this film was hanging by a thread and I was sitting in the evening at home, on the terrace thinking: “Oh God, maybe Papusza doesn’t want this film, maybe she is not satisfied with the cast, maybe she considers that what we are doing as bad, that she is upset and does everything to stop this from happening”. And I was sitting on that terrace talking to her, asking her to allow us to make this film. And we succeeded in finishing it so she maybe wasn’t that opposed [laughter].
Papusza is a main character in that film, but at the same time she is not conspicuous. She sneaks up in the film gently – like her poetry. Was that planned?
There are many elements in this film which were established by directors at the very beginning – at first, no rapprochements at all. And it is hard to narrate about a particular hero if he is constantly displayed from afar. We never have a look into Papusza’s eyes, we do not approach very closely. It was a planned manipulation – the directors wanted to show the Romani’s world but they didn’t want to create an impression that we can enter it easily, that we can become a part of it.
On the other hand, it is a film about Papusza, her poetry, her friendship with Ficowski but, in fact, it is a monumental piece of art. It is a story about Polish Romanis throughout history, so that is why it is hard to say that there was only one protagonist. The events in a film are told because of her but we are watching also huge fragments of all Romani society. It is also known that Papusza, as an outsider, is not often in the middle of events. She sometimes stands aside. We were trying to show that, although there was some individuality in regards to Papusza, she was always a part of that society. But our hero was also extraordinary; she was different, oversensitive and eventually landed on the margins of her society. It was our intention and that’s why I understand that some people accuse this film of presenting too little about Papusza, that it is insufficient. But it had to be like this.
It is not a pleasant film which you can watch with one eye and leave. It is a film which will seduce you or not at all. I am pleasantly surprised how many people enjoy this film and it is incredible that Papusza receives so many awards at film festivals, including audience’s awards.
It is captivating how differently people receive Papusza. At one festival, a man came up to Joanna Kos-Krauze and said: “That movie is about us – Palestinians”. Another time, Michał Urbaniak told Krzysztof: “It is a film about jazzmen, eternal outsiders”.
For me, it is a film about us – emigrants…not only in the material sense, but also in cerebral – about people who cannot sit in one place, constantly search for something…
Exactly. It is such a film – for one person about Palestinians, for second about musicians or emigrants – but do not forget that it is a film about Papusza and Romani people.
And what remained with you of Papusza? Who is she for you now?
I have a suspicion that, if it goes this way, it may be with a slight schizophrenia [laughter]. I already have had one story which shows how bad it is [laughter].
I would never dare to recite poetry in public because I consider it as too intimate and very hard. That is why, amongst other things, I didn’t agree to record Papusza’s poetry on CD for the occasion of the film’s premiere. But, a few months later, a friendly journalist called me who had organised a meeting devoted to Jerzy Ficowski, about his poetry, about discovering Bruno Schulz, about him as a Romani student. This journalist asked me to read Papusza’s poems. I, of course, refused. He was disappointed but understood my arguments and finally he said that he must look for another actress. I was walking through all that evening and thinking to myself: “How will it be? My poems will be read by another actress?” [laughter] and I suddenly thought that it is maybe too big of an identification with this character [laughter]. But when he called the next day to ask if I had changed my mind, I said yes, I changed it and I will read those poems [laughter]. But seriously, it is for sure a role which will always remain with me.
Photo © Jowita Budnik in film „Papusza” by Joanna Kos-Krauze and Krzysztofa Krauze. / the film distributor Next-Film.
You can watch the film Papusza in November during the Play Poland Film Festival.