I would like to ask you about racism in Poland, an issue which appears regularly in the Polish media. Gazeta Wyborcza some time ago published an interview with John Godson, the first black member of the Polish parliament, who emphasised that” there is no racism in Poland, but that bad behaviour is a result of low intercultural competences, a lack of knowledge and stereotyping”. What are your views on this issue?
As far as this issue is concerned, almost everybody is right. Actually, we should go even further in our considerations. We should realise that, after the fall of communism, we entered a new era, we entered a phase of not thinking about a country, a (single) state, but about the Europe State or even globalisation. And if this is the case, there are important questions to be answered, e.g. what foundations do we want to build this new thing on? One half of the world claims that we must build on all and any liberties, free market and the law that will keep it all together. The other half say: “You will gain nothing, you will witness such situations as you are talking about or even worse. You must try building this new Europe State on values agreed upon among creeds, religions and a relatively big number of non-believers”. If we pulled this through, everything else would be improbable. It would be clear for everybody that racism is eradicated and punished on the supranational level, in the Europe State and the globalisation concept. We haven’t achieved it yet and, in such conditions, such unfortunate situations will happen as it hasn’t been organised, yet. As long as we don’t organise it, we must not be surprised that such situations happen.
You say that the modern world should build on values, nobleness, honour and honesty. On the other hand, numerous young people have been leaving Poland. You say that, in this new model of life, we must raise a “human of conscience”. How can we, average citizens of Europe, contribute to this? How can we build Europe on values?
You have touched upon two issues. The first one deals with the values we’ve already discussed so I can skip this topic. The other issue is an economic one. So, if we remove borders between States and most of them have already been removed, we must realise that earlier these borders resulted in considerable discrepancies in countries’ development. We have different social security systems and taxes. We move factories where the labour force is cheaper, which is ridiculous. As soon as possible, we must “put up boards” encouraging to balance the levels. The road traffic code regulations are a good example. Look, in whole Europe, everybody who has a driving licence can drive all over Europe or even all over the world only because cars and road traffic regulations are similar. So, if we want to do similar things, let’s take this example and start harmonising regulations; we can’t afford to even out everything at once. However, if we plan what to even out in a year, two years, five years, then we will drive all over Europe and you won’t have to go to Holland as conditions will be the same in Poland and you’ll be able to build your Holland here, even from this very place. We must treat Europe as a single state, not in all aspects, but as regards the issues which are profitable for us. It will stop all mass migrations as they will result only from the fact that somebody likes given climate, but everybody can equally help Europe, from any given place.
It is unquestionable that you have contributed to abolishing borders, blocks and divisions. This year, 30 years have passed since you were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. What are the main dangers unexpectedly compromising peace in Poland, Europe and all over the world?
If we realise that our problem consists in having old programmes unsuitable for the modern times and attempt to adjust these programmes to the current conditions, we will solve all our current problems. But if we want to carry on living by old ways of thinking and systems in the new era, we’ll achieve nothing but chaos, we’ll tear Europe apart again, we’ll dissolve European Union. Moreover, a few countries will develop new programmes, structures and conditions and will inform us that countries which agree with them can co-exist in the new Europe State and the ones that don’t may sail alone. It’s quite likely. What we’ve learnt so far seems to be not enough to go forward. We must take half a step back so that we can accelerate again and head towards the place we are currently in.
A few years ago, you said during an interview: “I have achieved everything that has been possible to achieve. My only dream is not end up in hell”. Has the time verified your dreams or most of them have come true?”
My dream was to make the previous generation’s dreams come true. This was the generation living under the Soviet domination. As far as this is concerned, I’ve achieved everything. I have transferred all this, even losing myself to democracy and liberty. I’ve been effective. I’ve fought with the old, bad order of things. I don’t really like it because I’d like to make a mark again, however, while creating the new reality. I’ve been trying for 20 years and sometimes some people notice my work. You must remember that I had said the words spoken in Wrocław already 20 years ago. I had said almost it all, but nobody wanted to notice it. Sometimes I went even further and people mocked me, for example, when I said Europe would need a president and because I was saying so I expected you to elect me – it’s a joke obviously. I’ve been laughed at for 20 years. And what has happened? After 20 years, we’ve made this move. Thus I’d like to participate in the building process, but it will be difficult as there are the young guns, as the situation is different, as the burdens of the old era hinder my work towards this goal.
You have nothing against mass emigration. You’ve been striving for opening the entire world. However, aren’t you going to stop somehow young and talented Poles from leaving Poland so that they can work for its benefit?
In no way will I ever stop anybody. I agree with this. If we look at Europe as a whole, if we think, from the global perspective, that all this belongs to us, let everybody choose what they want, because, from any place, we may greatly contribute to building other places, all Europe and the place where we were born. But if somebody is kept in a given place, they will do nothing, they will build things themselves, then they will have problems themselves and will never support us. Thus this era is different from the previous one. We don’t look at the Poland State, we focus on the Europe State. Business, earning money for everybody, for Europe. That’s why we must change our way of thinking and our old ties as we have different bodies, other outlooks and we can choose to be a good citizen of Europe and Poland, from any place. If there is a place where I can do better business for myself and Poland, I must make a choice. We must not just sit here, do nothing and contribute to nothing.
From the perspective, how do you view almost 10 years of our European Union membership? In your opinion, what is the Poland’s position in Europe and in the world?
After accessing the EU we ceased to fall and, in some cases, we even started to rise, so it’s been successful. Let’s have a look at Gdańsk. I hardly recognise this city. I’m afraid to leave home alone as I might lose my way back. So many things are different. During this period, we have achieved incredible things. Surely, it is sometimes irritating, I mean the congestion and traffic jams, but all this is connected with a great overhaul, enormous rebuilding process.
You take numerous initiatives connected not only with Poland. Solidarity actions with Cuba, Sudan or Tibet are only few examples of initiatives implemented with the institute you established. At the same time you propagate ideas of solidarity and liberty which have been with you from the very beginning. In your opinion, which events in the world require special attention?
Let’s stop thinking “a state, a country” and start thinking “a continent” or even “globalisation”. If we want to achieve more, we must notice that in some places there are still considerable hindrances. We must realise that Cuba is such a hindrance. There are also countries which don’t implement programmes, structures and assumptions required by the today’s world and, shortly speaking, they hinder our development. That’s why I get involved in different places to minimise or eliminate the hindrances on the world’s path to development. That’s why I take part in various initiatives.
You’ve devoted your life for the good of the homeland, you are an unquestionable national hero recognised even in a tiny village on the south of Sri Lanka. Is there anything you still haven’t achieved? Is there anything that has slipped from under your control?
I haven’t noticed lots of things, I haven’t had the strength, I’ve been absorbed in something else. There are lots of deficiencies here, however, I try to refer to the issues I care about as much as I can. Sometimes I achieve it more accurately, sometimes less. However, I have achieved everything included in the concept consisting in the fact that, in this generation, all over the world, we must stop thinking about single countries or states and we must start thinking about enlarging structures and adjusting programmes so that they can develop further and ensure peace on earth.
When I was a student, I asked Janina Ochojska what motivated her to act and she said: “I’m driven by what I do. I believe I can help people.” I think there are scores of younger people who can envy your drive and involvement in numerous initiatives. So what drives you to act, every day?
My faith in God has always been a basis of everything. This and the thought that I must do my best so as not to end up in hell. I was raised in the faith. There are different creeds, but they offer you more or less the same. I’m not any good-goody, but I treat my life and my faith seriously and everything I do is for myself, for my children and for keeping with religious rules. However, I always ask people not to identify me with any holiness.
There are lots of Polish stereotypes in Holland. When you travel all over the world, you remind others about Polish experiences and our fight for liberty, peace and democracy. You use such opportunities to challenge negative stereotypes connected with Poland and Poles. What are the most common stereotypes? How, in your opinion, are we perceived in the world?
The problem is that if it hadn’t been for our improper behaviour, numerous European countries, probably including Holland, would not be as they are now. The communism would still thrive as no other country was able to defeat the Soviets. Only Poles with their character, mistrust and treacherousness was able, to the whole world’s astonishment, to perform this great deed. Even though it was a long time ago, Holland must remember about our former situation. The fact of being squeezed between Soviets and Germans forced us to be alert and observe all tendencies, opportunities and threats. We were always alert. Our “improper behaviour” often protected Europe and the world against disasters. That behaviour was excellent, but only in certain conditions, in the time of the Soviet Union, communism and other threats. However, when start clearing thing up, when we stop fighting and those threats are gone, such behaviour starts bothering us as it belongs to the previous era. This may result in the fact that people who have never been “on standby”, who lived in peace and security may misunderstand us as they fail to notice that such features enabled us to achieve so much. We’ve been changing, we are not different from the Dutch now. We used to live in different conditions, which forced us to behave in a certain manner. Had the Dutch been forced to live in such conditions, I’m not sure they would have survived. And if somebody wants to judge us, they must get to the bottom of things and learn why we behave this way, what the reasons are. That’s why such superficial judgements result only in drawing unfair conclusions.
Coming back to your foreign travels, would you agree that they considerably shape one’s personality?
Sure, but it’s a little different in my case. I always travel with a certain concept in my mind. I know why I go there and what I want to achieve. Today, I’ve been building globalisation. I pay attention to existing systems and conditions and I encourage others to build new things. I notice different things and I need different ones. I don’t know if I’m right or wrong. I have my visions and concepts which I strive to implement. I also look for opponents. I’m proud nobody has ever defeated me. All my actions have been successful, obviously in various times. So far, I’ve always been right and victorious. I don’t know if it’s still going to be this way as it doesn’t depend on me, anymore.
Gdańsk continues the long-lasting traditions of the Polish-Dutch friendship and good neighbourly relations, going back to the times of the Hanse. Do you have any ties with Holland?
No, not directly. You know, I have my own task and I’ve been trying to fulfil it. I never cut in or ask for invitations. I go to countries which invite me. Holland hasn’t invited me for a very long time so, in relation to things I’ve mentioned, my ties with this country are unremarkable.
Thank you very much for your time.
The interview has been originally published in the Bulletin of the Polish-Dutch Cultural Association. Thanks to Editing Team of the Bulletin for sharing it with us.
Photo © Anna Karahan